Interesting observations.

Most are enjoyable to read, and seem to fit what I know. However your background and knowledge about ST is quite a bit more extensive in many ways, than mine.

So several of those things are either new, or added material for me.

One thing I didn't know, and felt a little uneasy about:

"..., now that she doesn't have to feel guilty all the time, because someone may get a picture of Mutt or something. Watch some of the interviews from 1999 around the time of the Grammys, she was not happy. Mutt was not around, she said as much,...,"

When I first read that, I sensed that was not quite the full story. But as I looked at it again, it could be a valid assessment.

I did think though, that there were times after 1999, during which she was happy. But to tell the truth, I was not monitoring continuously, nor that closely.

On the other hand, one thing I did notice, which others seemed not to: remember when she wore that pink, revealing, low cut dress, that had so many of you guys drooling? Some event, was it the Kennedy Center honors? Anyway, it was admittedly quite a pleasant eyeful. However I liked her better in the black dress, of the 3 she wore to various events that night. Somewhat more mature and classical, which fit her achievement and stature. Beyond being less affected by the pink dress, due to age and calmer than average emotions, I had other thoughts. Like I worried some that she might feel the need to impress someone. Who would that be? And why? I had a definite hunch that she could be feeling under-appreciated by someone; i.e., Mutt, and this was her way of re-affirming her appeal. I had wondered off & on, for a long time after that, how things were going, and was a bit concerned. Of course it's a private matter, not to have noses publicly poked into, overmuch. But there was a lot of fan extra enthusiasm, about how she was the complete package, and even her songs and maybe some PR pointed to how wonderful life was, and how it was worth the wait, and at least by implication, how few other people can have all that.

Although I didn't have it clearly focused at the conscious level, this was one of the background factors, that had me asking the petition drive leaders, to be careful, in presenting their arguments for what they wanted. I thought there were things unknown at the time, which if known, would seriously change the understanding of ST's ability to respond.

Hmm, I am not much interested in speculating about Shania's private life but about your last paragraph, Bob, I have to say that we fans can never know about Shania's inner thoughts or private life situation no matter how much some of us claim to know. In the petition, our focus was not Shania but in the inadequacies of the then official fan club and the unused potential of the Shania Twain Centre. Fans have a right to express themselves. The main problem was the lack of any channel of communication to make our views known to Shania. We simply couldn't worry about whether the petition was somehow inconvenient because of Shania's private life. We did however stop short of going public as we could easily have done as we did not want to embarrass Shania.

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Roger

Yes, fans had the right to express themselves. That's one reason I signed. But then then as now, the logic of what is known, is not a complete justification, for being casual or insensitive to what is not known. Especially when the unknown is likely to be important, and it's an aspect of a person whose contribution and integrity are high.

The world would probably come to a grinding halt, and many if not most things of value would never get done, if everyone got paralyzed by a fear or undue deference to the unknown. We can only do the best we can, based on what we know. And leaders often need to use bold action.

In this case, petition leaders made exhaustive efforts to find out what unknown info could be important. But the circumstances of Mutt's requirement for privacy, and complications of management and other things, left that quest and path, a destination not fully reached.

It almost became a case of the irresistible force, against the immovable object.

In the end, the petition leaders' decision to not go more public than they did, and not seriously consider legal action, was commendable, in my view.

Although it was not the case here, I have, in my life, seen so many cases, where bold, assertive action, is without adequate consideration for the other side. Sometimes it's due to info that is not known, but could easily be found. Sometimes it's info that is known, but the initiator feels a net gain is possible. Sometimes it's clear the initiator will get ahead at the expense of the other side, and doesn't care. In the more serious cases, this is a cause of harm, discomfort, conflict, violence and wars. I suppose it helps to keep people on their toes, and the population down. But there are better ways to achieve those two ends, and another topic not to go into here.

My main point, is a feeling that occurs to me intuitively. Many if not most people, do not have a good perspective, on the value of what they don't know.

Open minded people have the best chance to adapt appropriately to their environment, and make constructive progress. The more a person knows, across a range of topics, usually the better is their appreciation for the topics on which their info is limited, and where they should defer to others.

Closed minded people tend to fit the profile that includes extremists, be they religious, political, or whatever.

I don't know what category fits the people of France, or Greece, or even the often bright people of Scotland in some ways; which causes the recent riots in France and Greece, over the decision to raise the retirement age from 60 to 62, to help prevent their country from financial collapse.

The rioters and demonstrators admit they know it has to be done, and it will be done. But in the case of France, the protesters say they protest anyway, because they are French, and France always has such a right, unlike some other countries. Although representative democracy and the right of free speech are laudable in most ways, and although those conveniences do not exist in many other countries, it sometimes seems to go beyond an independent spirit and national pride, into the realm of cultural arrogance and personal license and irresponsibility.

The second book I've been writing, about my uncle in secret intelligence during WW II, has a lot of evidence about the arrogance of the British, and how people around the world felt about it. The Brits were good at some things. But many of them had overlarge egos, which made them overconfident in matters beyond their area of expertise. Under Montgomery, the Brits eventually prevailed in preventing the German take-over of the Suez Canal, and the oil fields in the Middle East. But it was a very close call. Failure would've quickly ended the war, with the Allies the losers, including the Brits and the U.S.

One thing many people do not know, is that the Egyptians rankled under British control of their country. A large part of that was British arrogance. I was surprised to learn that the Egyptians actually felt more comfortable with how the Nazis treated them, than with how the Brits treated them. If Egypt had not been somewhat neutralized by a split within their own people, on matters mostly unrelated to the war, they probably had the means to easily organize resistance to the Brits, and change the outcome of the war.

The moral of the story, do the best you can, based on what you know. But have an appreciation of what you don't know.

Fair enough, Bob.

On the subject of the French, this is not the first time they have been accused of being culturally arrogant. For sure they have a long tradition of mass demonstrations. Such popular pressure led to the French Revolution over two centuries ago and more recently to what is today perhaps the most generous provision of social services in the world. Unfortunately for them, if current demonstrations cause the gevernment to back down, the whole country will lose and they will end up worse off. But it is always difficult to take away hard earned "rights".

Anyway we are getting away from Shania topics, so "Revenons à nos moutons" as the French say.

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Roger

Thanks Roger for your patience and accommodative reply.

Although the French, Brits and others deserve the occasional bashing, some of that is past history. The Brits have seen their empire dissolve and their influence reduced. The reality of their economy, after independence of most of the countries under their control, has resulted in a corresponding change in the British attitude. Their aristocratic class society has mostly waned. Queen Elizabeth's mild, polite demeanor, has also helped promote an egalitarian view, which pleases me.

What doe not please me, is the way human shortcomings are rather universal, not confined to a few countries or cultures. The U.S. society has become, in some ways, one of the most arrogant and greedy, since WW II. Combined with Japan and a couple countries in Western Europe, we've consumed for decades now, nearly 80% of the goods and services in the world, despite being only about 20% of the world's population.

Yet the notion seems to entirely escape the U.S. citizenry, that any harm could ever come to them from the disaffection of billions of people in the world, who earn the equivalent of 2 US dollars per day. Those chickens come home to roost, no matter whose country or culture, they are hatched from.

I apologize for my soap box here. The info should be in a different thread. However there are so few threads here, and so little dialog, it probably doesn't matter a lot.

But I do agree with you, that this thread should be allowed to get back to the original topic. I think it was about Shania's upcoming autobiography. I can't see the topic, as I type this reply. So I have to rely on my memory, which ain't what it used to be.

The problem with liberals is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so.


How about picking up a history book or two. maybe three :rolleyes:


Go read Liberty and Tyranny then we can talk.


Also, read the 5000 Year Leap.
But start here..
http://thefoundersprinciples.org/2009/0 ... ded-eagle/


Road to Disunion vol 1 and 2 . I am currently up to the second volume.
These books cover 1776 to the civil war. Very interesting look at the South, and North. Not exactly the black and white version of history taught in school. Oh, wait, I guess I should say The War of Northern Aggression, since I live in the South now


American Creation
The Great Upheaval
George Washington's War

Read a book or two on Lincoln as well. "One Man Great Enough" is excellent.

I've read every book I have mentioned above. My next book is three roads to the Alamo.

Now, back to the topic at hand, Shania.


-Chris

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STNAOFC/Shania's Place
"You can't have a happy face without a happy heart."-Shania Twain

I am thankful that at least some of you Americans can see yourselves more critically, Bob. I think you are too hard on your own country but Chris's intemperate rant does reveal the intransigence of your problems and will probably put an end to this thread. Too bad.

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Roger

I forgot we can't disagree, how uncivil. I thank god that Americans are opening their eyes finally. Funny how you assume you are RIGHT all the time. Which you aren't. *SHOCK* Yes, you guys can be WRONG.

Here is my challenge go read one of the books I mentioned, or are you too good to go read and learn something??? See something from a different point of view. I'll even go read a book you suggest as long as it isn't Karl Marx, or Sal Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, since I read those already You know what they say, "know your enemy"




Hey, I am willing to take this topic to another thread, and we can go back to Shania.







-Chris

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STNAOFC/Shania's Place
"You can't have a happy face without a happy heart."-Shania Twain

From Shania's quote...

"There have been moments in my life I was concerned by the reality that tomorrow would never come. Recently I experienced one of those moments to an intensity that brought on a sudden urgency to document my life before I ran out of time," she said.


I wonder if this event was her trip in the snow she blogged about last year, or something we don't even know about?


-Chris

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STNAOFC/Shania's Place
"You can't have a happy face without a happy heart."-Shania Twain

Of course they felt better with the Nazis, they had much more common with them. The Mufti of Jerusalem was a friend and supporter of Hitler, helped to organize balkanian muslims against Europe, and complained that the killing of the jews was not fast enough, and widespread enough.
After the WWII a lot of Nazis hide in Egypt.


Sorry this not about Shania. So now can get back to the subject.

That's a great line. I had to laugh in appreciation. It can probably be accurately applied to persons of many persuasions, not just Liberals.

Returning to another topic of yester-year, I remember when Robin Eggar's autobiography of Shania Twain came out. Many fans were upset. It did not cast Shania in the same worshipful light that the most intense fans had.

More objective readers, found the book reasonably balanced. Some of us were a bit surprised and a bit uncomfortable with some of the revelations. But we understood this is a part of real life. Nothing and no-one is perfect, even those closest to saint-hood.

I was amazed at how some shania fans had no clue to their bias. They seemed to think that because they followed news and info about Shania, more closely than anyone else, their views were the most accurate and UN-biased.

I was later surprised, that after some of the hubbub calmed down, some of the same Shania fans were not only reveling in Eggar's book, they were quoting it and discussing it at length, for months on end, on message boards. I enjoyed that, and even participated in it some myself. But I was surprised at the difference in emotions or attitude, or 'something' in fans, at those different points in time.

It will be interesting to see how it goes with Shania's own version of her personal history. Frankly, I'm not sure Shania fans can be reliably predicted in their reaction to her book. But I guess she's going to be having a TV show at about the same time. So this will be a different situation.

It will probably have the effect of interactivity, that a book alone, cannot have. As such, Shania will probably have much more influence and control over how the info is presented, explained and digested by fans and maybe also the public. I can't vouch for the tabloids, but I don't think their credibility is worth worrying much about.

As Roger indicated some months ago, possibly in a different thread, a 3rd party biographer and an autobiographer, each have some advantages and disadvantages.

Eggar had better view from a distance, for objectivity. But he didn't have as much access to personal details. Shania will have virtually ultimate access to personal details. But she may lose a bit of objectivity here and there.

Who is going to call her to account, when her views are just one side of a story? Mutt sure is not going to go public, given past behavior. He's possibly the only large topic, with diverging views.

Based on their non-confrontational style in virtually both of their entire past lives, I would guess we'll see a similar approach regarding her autobiography, to the extent that it addresses the separation/divorce.

What little I've heard, and Spock can correct me if I'm wrong, Mutt simply had a different view of why they grew apart, then went apart. He did not sound angry at her.

She did sound angry at him. But she's not likely to bash people unless they are out and out lying. She bashed an editor of a Timmins newspaper one time, on the story about her father, and heritage. And that editor eventually reassessed the facts and concluded Shania might be right, and apologized to her.

The question comes: has Mutt lied about his behavior, or reasons for it, leading to their separation/divorce?

This might be a test of fans' objectivity. I'm going to guess that most of the intense fans, think Mutt did lie. Others, including me, aren't sure. We don't know all the evidence. Fans might not think all the evidence is necessary. Just enough to hang Mutt.

Suppose Mutt did not lie, that he was basically telling the truth, as near as he understood it? Then what?

Is the new autobiography and TV show, going to be a forum to work through that issue?

That issue might be given limited exposure. There is certainly a lot else that has been going on in Shainia's life. And the public, as well as fans will be interested. But the hottest topic often gets the most attention.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Another 10 years from now, I may be looking back, knowing more, but some that is not so, and still with a wry, but mostly friendly smile, at my Shania friends and acquaintances.

This is interesting. I'd like to hear more. I think we can learn some useful things from the various people posting on this topic. Would one of the moderators be willing to create a new thread in the General Forum, for those who'd like to continue? Then we can cut and paste what's relevant to that site, then go from there.

[QUOTE=StarlightMusic;1411638]Hey Everyone!

I was surfin' on amazon.com for some other posters of Shania and look what I found!

http://www.amazon.com/Untitled-Memoir-S ... 49&sr=1-13

How amazing is that ?! [/QUOTE]
Wowie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The quintessential lean mean singin' machine has surprised and enraptured us and conquered our hearts, minds and souls again and again.

Due out April 5, 2011.

352 pages.

Sounds substantive.

Apparently you can pre-order for the April 5th, 2011 release here:

http://www.amazon.com/Untitled-Memoir-S ... 49&sr=1-13



Steve

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